Electronic handout

Ash (they/them):

ASH: to me:: femboy is: (.)
ASH: being trans↑masculine (.) when I was a little kid
ASH: I was always described as a *tomboy* (.)
ASH: and that now as I'm kind of (..) kind of transitioning
          to a mo:re masculine centre
ASH: people don't view me as a masculine ↑girl they view me as a feminine (.)
          *boy*
ASH: or as kind of growing up it's been a *man*
ASH: and it's it's the in- its the yeah it's the opposite of a tomboy to me its:
ASH: I I didn't even realize that it was (..) a word that was used (.) as a
          slur (.) at all
ASH: uh to me it was a it's a
ASH: I've I've heard of (..) uhm
ASH: whereas tom*boy* and tom*girl* (.) I've heard
ASH: I don't I don't really like that one as much it doesn't feel kind of
          as opposi:te
ASH: uhm there's there's obviously the ones that are
ASH: are kind of *negative* (..) there's uhm
ASH: there's a *reference* in one of my other things (.) to Placebo
ASH: they got this song Nancy Boy
ASH: which is the same sort of thing and uhm I mean:
ASH: when I knew I haven't got em painted now at the moment but I love to
          paint my ↑nails:
ASH: and even before (.) I realised that I wasn't a girl:
ASH: it always what what felt more ↑camp (.) than classically feminine
ASH: so yeah to me being a femboy is: kind of: a feminine boy: (..)
ASH: and kind of: just breaking down that boundary between:
ASH: what is: like ↓girl things and ↓boy things
ASH: what it is to be masculine and what it is to be feminine:
ASH: like people always: and yeah my texts started to become a concert
          of: like
ASH: why would you transition: just to be feminine:

[…]

ASH: I joined: ↑reddit a ↑couple of years ↑ago:
ASH: and (.) I think that was one of the places where first I: saw kind of:
          that sort of fem:boy and
ASH: and that idea that you can be: trans(.) masculine without being:
ASH: hypermasculine to make up for: (unintelligible) there's this there's
          a lot of:
ASH: like it's understandable: when you have to jump through all these hoops
ASH: to be accepted (.) and you are: ↑seen: as female:
ASH: you're trying to counteract that:
ASH: a lot of transmasculine spaces are much (.) like
ASH: ↑here's how to grow a ↑beard quickly
ASH: ↑here's how to get ↑muscles quickly
ASH: ohh: hyper↑masculine we're gonna be so: man:ly it's gonna be so great
ASH: I wish I was like (.) three inches ta:ller
ASH: and is ↓ahhhh
ASH: there's a: subreddit (.) that's
ASH: there's ↑two of them: because I:
ASH: think they they they're just both:: ↑so great
ASH: of: eff to em femininity
ASH: and em to eff (.) ↑masculinity
ASH: which is just (.) trans: like fem↑boys and tom↑girls:
ASH: tomboys: rather
ASH: and is: people just kinda going
ASH: ↑yeah:: like I don't ↑have to:
ASH: prove myself: I can:
ASH: still be (.) seen: (..) as how I want to be:
ASH: well well most playing around with kind of gender
ASH: cause this this thing of like ↑ohh like if:
ASH: if you (.) gonna be feminine (.) why would you even:: transition:
ASH: why don't you just be a girl: that's ↑feminine it's like
ASH: it's not the ↑same:: though:
ASH: I don't wanna be feminine and in a in a: female: feminine way
ASH: I wanna be feminine like a:: masculine way:
	

Meryl (she/he):

MERYL: uhm I think that's also part of it:  part of what the appeal of those
                 kind of games: is
MERYL: not only being able to kind of (.) develop a: a: (.) kind of little
                 version of yourself but *share* it with others (.) in a safe: environment
DALILA: hmm
MERYL: I mean (.) not all games provide that (..) safe environment to share
                 who you are
MERYL: uhm as I is (.) sure most (laughs) most people who've have any kind of
                 like (.) uhm
MERYL: you know (.) who have belonged to any kind of minoritized community:
MERYL: can attest to (.) *game:* gaming spaces cannot can be quite hostile:
                 to minorities
MERYL: uhm (.) but there are games like animal crossing: or like splatoon: which
                 are: quite (.) you know accepting: and safe
MERYL: uhm and animal crossing especially: I mean that's: I met my current
                 boyfriend through (.) playing animal [crossing]
DALILA: [ohhhh]
MERYL: uhmm yeah it it it (..) you know the *that* game (.) th- the most recent
                 one came out at ex- almost exactly the right time:
MERYL: at the time when no one could leave the house: (.) and everyone was
                 feeling kind of fed up
MERYL: it was like oh this game where you can be on a desert island (.) and
                 you can go (.) on th- little hikes whenever you want
MERYL: and you can meet your friends:: uhm which you can't do in real life
                 and (.) you know
MERYL: uh that was the first time I was able to like (.) you know (.) *meet*
                 my boyfriend: was (.) you know I was (.) we were ehhhh flying to each
                 other's islands on this [video game:]
DALILA: (laughs)
MERYL: and this you know (.) coming out and having like a kind of digital date
MERYL: uhm
DALILA: right
MERYL: yeah uhm (laughs) and yeah I was able to *dress* exactly the way I
                 wan:ted and
MERYL: you know (.) it was *fine* (laughs)
MERYL: like could be there didn't have to worry about like:
MERYL: oh you know where can we go: to sit and have a drink: where
MERYL: you know I might not (.) I'm not gonna get *harassed*
MERYL: or someone's not going to (..) you know
MERYL: uhm you know (.) uhm uhm make a (.) make a a scene: or something
MERYL: well no one is gonna do that in a video game because they can't
                 uhm (laughs)
	

Katy (he/it/pup):

KATY: very:: very: eh actually ↑fun I'd I- I- I- I was gonna include it but I
               couldn't I I
KATY: like coz it coz it was to do: like with in some: message in some chat:
               (.) ages ago
KATY: but I kno- I remember who it was and I remember how it came across:
KATY: uh so I'll get them: uh they specifically on here
KATY: ehh is this person here (.) ↑they: so it's is very is very interesting
               cuz ↑they:
KATY: uh first like uh interacted with me in like 2017 or whatever
KATY: and ↑they were a femboy: for a very very long time coming across
KATY: they were: (.) you know presenting as a femboy: you know
KATY: everyone: they were they their name is TJ: they came across and what a
               a femboy presentation
KATY: ehhh and then: eh speaking to me: ended up cracking their egg:
KATY: and they realised (.) wait I'm not a femboy (.) I'm a ↓woman
KATY: and [this you know]
ALON: [hmm hmmm]
KATY: they're one of the they're one of those (.) good examples of going from
               the femboy:
KATY: pipeline to: oh actually I'm a ↓woman and then transitioning it all around
KATY: but there was: eh a fun like cha:t that was happening between them:
KATY: and some other group of ↑people
KATY: where they just ↑ended up talking about me
KATY: ah ah I came up in the conversation: for some reason
KATY: to do with gender (.) as you can imagine that happens a lot uhh (laughs)
KATY: I I I'm sort of a very easy go to for: let's explain a weird bit of gender
KATY: here's [Katy um]
ALON: (laughter)
KATY: so they were talking with this person: they were chatting with them:
KATY: and then I got a: notification from nowhere
KATY: saying (.) ↑hey Katy I'm talking to these peo:ple and they referred
               to you as a femboy
KATY: and then they were like (.) wait is Katy a femboy:
KATY: and then: they added me we're like (.) we realise that you'd-
KATY: you we don't know what it is but we feel like you would be on here
KATY: and they messaged me for it (.) and I just remember about going
               ↑yeah right yes (laughs)
ALON: (laughter)
KATY: and then: thought that was that
KATY: which was you know just in a joking tone:
KATY: and again I was just like ha ha let's make gender more confusing:
KATY: cuz I'm like that
KATY: uh but then obviously that ↑sets some ball roll:ing in my head and
               when: wait
KATY: they've mentioned this (.) and that was ha ha funny:
KATY: but ↑wait actually you know I do I I do:
KATY: sort of fall (.) into what would be the: the classifications (.) in
               the box of femboy:
KATY: and I do enjoy some of the presentations for that:
KATY: and you know that ↑gender is kind of fun: and then I got and then:
               got into it
KATY: I was already using he him ↑pronouns at that [point]
ALON: [hmm hmm]
KATY: but it was without: the (.) fem:boy whiplash all that element: it was just coz I liked
KATY: uh I'd I've I- I came out in I I: came out as trans in 2016:
KATY: using she her for a while: and then she they
KATY: and then ah a:fter some point I was like ok (.) I wanna flair gender around
KATY: and then went to he him (.) and then it started the whole:
KATY: falling ball: of using it and then using pup and then using whatever
KATY: and the whole: massive gender chaos that I cause (.) but
KATY: I was still I was already using he him at that ↑point
KATY: and then people I guess were just putting two and two together for
               themselves: and going
KATY: that's femboy: or some form of ↑femboy
KATY: and I just had't put two and two ↑together
KATY: so they mentioned that as a funny thing:  I went yes ↑sure
KATY: and then: went in my brain and went
KATY: ↑no yeah yeah two and two does make four there that does:
KATY: that makes per:fect sense
KATY: and then adopted that: as one of the: ↑gender presentations or [personas]
ALON: [hmm hmm]
KATY: in my identity. So:: (.hhh)